I have followed the Beverly plan for the last three years and won most of my shows. This year I am going to hit three shows, starting this weekend. Any suggestions on what to do with potassium, water and carbs from show to show would be helpful. I normally have two or more weeks off, and taper down then up again. How should I go about it going from week to week??

If you're in your best, top shape, remember the formula for depletion:

Sun-Wed: 2X-2.25 your normal intake of fluids
Thurs: .75-1X normal intake
Fri: .5 normal intake until 2PM then sip as needed until Sat.

So, just watch your intake. Remember that 8 8oz of water is recommended (That is a minimum). To make those back to back contests, your protein intake will be lower too, because of diet. The main reason for high water intake regularly is to offset any potential kidney problem due to the high intake of protein.

The first contest should be based on a much larger volume of fluids. The second, base the Sun-Wed on a lesser volume then use the same formula for cutting back.

Best wishes!!!!
Frank

Hi sulcop! Wow, three shows in three weeks. With two weeks between shows it is easier to get everything back to equilibrium before hitting contest week again, but there have been people who have been successful in peaking for shows that are only one week apart so it can be done. As you have competed successfully before, you know how your body reacts - and that is a big plus.

Have you thought about trying to keep water in? Several guys have been successful with that approach recently (fitdoc, JT, Anthoney Buccaso) Take a look at the Dr. Joe thread for info on that strategy. It takes one variable out of the equation.

I'll differ with Frank a little on the water manipulation if you want to drop it on Friday night. I'd recommend not tapering down on Thursday or Friday until you drop it. In other words keep water intake high (2x+) until you stop. What you are looking for with the water drop is the bodies reaction, or initially, lack of reaction. With the extra intake your body is saying to itself - oh I have so much water I can just get rid of it all - this process of water elimination continues for perhaps 12 or more hours after you stop intake, so the body keeps expelling extra water. If you taper water intake on TH and Fri it can reduce the bodies "need" to keep eliminating water. The key thing here is the sodium manipulation. Stopping sodium intake on Thursday in order to draw subqutaneous water away from under the skin. With the carb loading that water is then drawn into/ available to bond with the injested carbs and thus fill up your muscles. You do need to drink some water, or black coffee/tea on Sat morning especailly about an hour before hitting the stage. Hopefully you have a feel from past contests regarding how much your body needs to fill out.

Most plans I have seen for back to back contests suggest a high carb day on Sunday then back to carb restriction on Monday, Tuesday and Wed along with another round of carb depletion workouts. You would need to get at least moderate amounts of sodium back in after Saturday or the long term lack of sodium will cause your body to start holding water. Short term lack of sodium will not do this, but if you go more than say 48-72 hours your body will compensate. So do the sodium manipulation each week as you would have for the first week. I see no reason to handle potassium any differently. Taper back down to no extra potassium as you add sodium back in, then start the extra potassium again as you drop sodium for round two. So if you stick with the traditional carb deplete, carb load/sodium and water manipulation strategy you would essentially just do the same thing three weeks in a row but with the carb up day on Sunday.

Let us know how it works for you and what your thoughts are afterwards and good luck!

VA MadDog

VA MadDog,

Do you have that link you are referring to? That sounds like a logical approach. It would seem that I began to retain water the last time I used this. It may have been a problem relating to sodium depletion. I don't know. I did notice by Thursday morning, I was thirsty and looked better than I did on Saturday prejudging.

The formula I got was the Beverly way and I just used the numbers for the formula so it can be made easily made to fit a person that is 90 lbs to a person that is 250lbs. There's a reason for that approach and I don't have that answer.

If you have that link, please email it to me or post it.

Thanks!
Frank

Hey Frank.. and Sulcop (from OCB!!!) Here is the thread that VA is talking about.. I think this covered the water manipulation. Also, Fitdoc posted what he did in his previous Win.. same type of non-water restriction. Dr. Joe / Natty prep guru It's under the heading "contest prep" a few down - under the title I posted. Good info.. and it's what I'm doing this time, also.

Brochas,

Yep, sulcop for OCB so you know I'll be at the DC Muscle mania next week and the OCB Pitt the week after then the ANBC Nationals. Hope to see you there.

VA Maddog & Frank,

I did see the post and was going to keep water in for the first show and see how it plays out. My normal water table is 1 oz. water per # of body weight. I increase by 50% from Saturday to Thursday. I Cut 50% on Friday and only go with what I need on Saturday. My carb day is Thursday with Friday a beef and grapefruit day. Saturday is beef and potato and perhaps a twix pre-pump up. I use the normal potassium chart for 165# and I am currently around 3% on the 7 site test. My sodium is high until Thursday and I drop it on Friday. I was going to do the taper on potassium as I increased sodium then reverse again, but was concerned with the water. At what point will I retain? I was figuring on adding the water and sodium back in after pre-judging, not too high but back in. No cheat meals until the last show it will be chicken and sweet potato and perhaps a protien bar. If anything I'll keep the water high for the MM then lower for the OCB show and my normal cuts for the Nationals.

sulcop - Wow - If your 3% readings are accurate you should do very well. I'm sure you are on track and look great, but frankly 3% is very low and attained by very few BBers. But what matters is how you look, not a percentage. I never have any luck with body fat measurement, so I rely on the mirror. Being lean allows the water/carb/sodium manipulation to have a result that can be seen.

I'm thinking that you may want to keep the natural diuretics in through the whole three weeks. If you had two weeks in between shows you could probably stop them and restart, but with only seven days keeping them in might be the better approach. If you keep water in you will not have to worry at all about getting dehydrated. If you drop water on Friday just be careful to not get too dry. For example, you will know on Saturday morning that you need some water intake if you are not getting good muscle contractions as you practice posing. Same goes for not being able to get a decent pumped feeling as you get ready to go on stage. Both are signs that you need to add some water back in. At this point any water will be sucked right into the muscles and you sould not have to worry about smoothing over. In fact most folks won't start to smooth over until late on Sunday even after they put sodium back in!

It can get complicated with so many possible strategies. I have not tried keeping water in myself yet but plan to for my next contest.

If you keep it in for the first show, and are pleased with that strategy - why not keep it in for all three shows?

If you do decide to go back to cutting water out, keep it high until you cut late on Friday. Dropping water by 50% on Friday has no benefit and it could slow down your bodies natural attempt at diuresis which has been turned on by it sensing extra water. You want the body to continue with diuresis plus can help that along with some natural diuretics and the grapefruit. The potassium does more to prevent cramping than anything else by keeping your electrolytes in balance. Most people drop the sodium on Thursday, but if waiting until Friday has worked for you before, you are the best judge of your body.

It is water manipulation, not water restriction that gives you the dry look you want. This manipulation is driven primarily by sodium control and carb control. The combination of low/no sodium for 48 hrs or so plus very low carbs and muscles that have been glycogen depleted then going to high carbs draws the water in your system away from the skin (where sodium normally helps it go) and into the muscles as they supercompensate with glycogen as a result of the carb deplete/carb loading.

You ask At what point will I retain? I'm not certain what you are asking. If you try to restrict sodium too long your body will compensate on it's own (trying to stabilize electrolytes) and you will start to retain water even without sodium. This normally does not happen until close to 72 hours, but each person is a little different.

You are going to feel and look somewhat flat and smooth by Tuesday and Wednesday each time. That is a good sign that you are depleting correctly and poised for the sodium restriction to work as you want it to work. As you get closer to Saturday you should be tightening up especially after you restrict sodium and start to carb load. You should look pretty good Friday morning if things are on track. As you know our bodies change during the course of every day - gosh I looked better an hour ago, etc. That's all related to activity, food and water intake and even body position.

I am a beleiver that drinking too much water does not smooth you over. Your body will just get rid of all of the extra water that it does not need. Drinking more just makes you go to the bathroom more. When people smooth over it is because they a) Were just pain not lean enough to start with or B) They messed up thier sodium and/or carb manipulation. As fitdoc, JT and Anthoney proved you can keep water in all the way through and appear dry and hard - so it is not the amount of water - it is how you have manipulated where the water is in your system that matters. Dropping water on Friday is just a type of insurance policy that helps manipulation along - but it is probably not necessary if the rest is done right. With keeping water in you pretty much avoid any concerns regarding cramping, dehydration and the timing of when and how much to add back on Saturday. It is simpler to keep it in if it will work for you. Only way to find out is to give it a try! Both approaches have been proven to work.

VA MadDog

I'm late to the thread here, but I cant add much more than VA did. Kudos to VA for well thought out responses.

You have three shows so taking one to do an experiment may not be all that bad. Thats what I did when I found keeping water in was much better for me. Good luck with your strategy.

Its sort of late and Ive been class all day long, when Im fresh Ill re-read this post and see if I have anything to add.

Jason--

Jason Theobald

www.geocities.com/chezburger10/JASONTHEOBALDBIO.html

VA Maddog,

Excellent, thank you! I will cut the sodium back on TH when I add carbs. I think I may just cut back on water for FR night and SA AM. When I have my carb meal on Sat before pre-judge I'll take in 20 oz or so of water then drink as I need till after pre-judge. If this works then the following week I'll just keep water in.

The water retention question was in referance to the ratio of water/sodium/potassium causing water retention so I have time to shed. For example on Sunday when my carbs are in, water high, sodium in and potassium dropping I would think I'll retain, so at what point does the balance allow the shift from fat to muscle? I would figure by Tues I'll be balanced and shifting on TH.

As for the 3% thing, this is only a referance for me. I sue the calipers as a tool and use the same calipers, same sites, same chart and same tester (my wife and I) every time to see the trend and where my slow spots (quads and tris) are. In reality I think real 3% figures are as valid as 22" arms, 300+ lb competitive bodyweights and 600# off season bench presses. The chart I use is the same put out by the USMC in 1981 and goes to 1%. There are no age brackets and its 7 sites. I still use it (even due to inaccuracy) because its the same one I started with back in 1982 at my first show (I am up to like 50-60 now) so its a tool. The mirror is much more effective, but at this point I have competitor eye.

As for the diuretics, I use Taraxatone starting with 3&3 on Wednesday through Sat. Do you think I should just keep it at that dose all the way through?

One last question, I have never done the wine thing on Friday night, but fitdoc I believe said it worked great. Any thoughts?

Sully

Sully - Had this response typed once, then my PC locked up and I had to reboot - I hate it when that happens!

Wow- 50-60 contests! That is a bunch - you should be very knowledgeable about contest prep and how your body reacts. I only have about a dozen contests under my belt, but I took about 15 years off from competition.

Even though you should be our sage with your contest history - I'll try to respond to your questions.

I do think that you will see the normal final week changes as you would expect even with the three cycles for three contests. Sunday you will be fuller and starting to smooth over from the extra carbs and sodium. Monday still about the same. Tuesday and Wednesday starting to feel and look more depleted but still fairly smooth. Thursday should be the swing day when you start to get fuller and harder, but Friday it will be more noticable. Sat morning, of course, you should look your best. Not sure what you mean by the shift from fat to muscle, but I think that you are talking about the water shift from subqutaneous to being pulled into the muscles as glycogen replenishment. That is the Thursday through Sat morning time frame.

I'll explain what I used this last time for diuretics and mineral replenishment. Starting on Monday I took Vit C 6-8g in two doses ~2 and 6pm. I also took a calcium/magnesium supplement through contest day in three doses. On Wed I began the taraxatone 2 doses ~ 2 and 6pm. If all is working well diuretic wise by Thursday morning you should be drier than usual from not talking in any water while you slept. As the day goes on you will smooth out a little from your high water intake. On Thursday I added the potassium 4x99mg spread over the day. I stayed at this potassium intake level and it worked fine for me. I know that some plans recommend more than this but I don't think that it is necessary for most. Thursday and Friday are no sodium days. If you use PB for your carb up make sure that it is natural no sodium PB.

A glass or two of red wine on Friday night is fine. Of course I hear that fitdoc drank a full 1.5 litre of wine - maybe that was his secret! Just kidding fitdoc.... Some will also consume it on Saturday morning. Another Saturday morning drink could be half a carbo force with one teaspoon of salt and 10 grams of glutamine added taken about 20 minutes before hitting the stage. That high GI carb boost with the salt and glutamine should help your vascularity. You can take the other half 20 minutes before the night show for a similar effect.

20 oz of water with meal one on Sat might be a little much at one time. You may want to start with 8 oz, then drink another 6-8 later if it is helping to fill you out. Of course with the "I'll keep water in plan" you just keep water intake high all the way through but it is more of a 4-6 oz every 15-20 minutes plan rather than a big gulp all at once. Eating or drinking too much too fast can lead to bloating and GI issues - lol

I write all of this stuff down and bring it with me so that the low carb blues don't affect my memory and plan - now where was that darn list??? I'm sure that you can relate. Best of luck and remember to take a few notes and give us some feedback!

VA MadDog

One more thing - I took the first dose of cal/mag, C and taraxatone on Saturday morning about 7am. If you are not dry enough you can take another dose at 9 or ten am. Squeeze in another dose of potassium around 2 or 3pm and another full round about 6pm before the evening show. This should keep you in diuresis and prevent any cramping. Drinking a liter of Gatoraide after the night show will help you to replenish minerals, electrolytes and liquid.

VA MadDog

VA Maddog,

Thanks again. Yes, I figure between 50-60 shows. My first show was in 1982 and I averaged 1-4 shows per year from 1983-1991 and again from 1993 till now. In the 80's and 90's I came in soft and big, won a few but was mostly the guy they said had potentual, but needed to diet. In 1993 I started getting harder and from 1996 till now have done quite well. From 1995-2000 I did nothing for the last week. No load, no drop nothing. I ate low carb and high protien all the way through. I was hard, but flat. From 2001 till now I used the Beverly plan and its been great. This year I just wanted to try a few new things. I also noted that at 40 my body is responding differently to things. Thats why I love this sport, its a constant jurney of self-discovery. I also have learned that NO ONE knows it all, and I consistantly seek out new sources of info, like this board. I thank you for the imput and I'll post how it goes. Oh, if you are curious my photo is with my avitar on www.OCBbodybuilding.com message board. I post as sulcop, if you check it out the photo is from last year. I am pretty much the same right now. Thanks again,

sully

Sully your avitar looks great! You will do very well if you are in that same condition for your upcoming shows. Outstanding work and dedication. I love it when us guys from the over 40 crowd can still hold our own and look good - says an awful lot for the BBing lifestyle - at least for the natural BBing lifestyle. As you can certainly come in to a contest dry and hard I'd love to see you try it with keeping water in. That should help you avoid any past issues with not being full enough and it would be great to get your perspective on the approach since you have done this the traditional way so many times. Some day I'll send you to some threads on another board that discuss a different way of carbing up - compressing the carb up into Friday night and Saturday morning. I tried that this last time and it worked pretty well, but one time is not yet a proven strategy in my mind. Have fun - it's obvious that BBing is in your blood!

VA MadDog

Oh stop it, Sulcop. You're a yougun' compared to some (me). Go get 'em!!!

Gary from OCB

VA- i dont drink alcohol at all, but i decided to try 4oz of red wine 2 nights before the natural northern to see what would happen.

First of all, the stuff tastes like ****. I dont see how people drink alcoholic beverages. After that first sip, that measly 4oz looked more like a gallon!

I finished the wine and waited for the results. Let me tell you, i felt awful. Alcohol and DeWayde do not work well together.

Never again!

In all thy getting, get understanding

Oh, i see my description of the taste was replaced by asterisks. Well, it was NOT the word you're thinking. I dont curse, so i'm not sure why the word was replaced, but i just want folks to know i didnt use an expletive.

In all thy getting, get understanding

DeWayde - Next time you have to spring for the good stuff like a nice bottle of Merlot. That Strawberry Ripple you bought at Walgreens is not what your average connoisseur of fine wines would have selected - lol

In all thy getting - get some better wine!

VA MadDog

Va Maddog & everyone else,

Just back from the DC Muscle Mania and just wanted to let everyone know, keep water in!! I did well, I won the Police and Fire Div and my class and was 2nd in the overall by 1 vote. Kind of lost it on my own as I was so beat I kind of skimped on my manditories in the overall posedown thinking I could coast to a win. NOT!! Point #2, never coast when victory is in sight. Anyway there are some pohot's up on www.OCBbodybuilding.com on the message board and on my training log. Check em out if you get a chance, and next week is show #2, I'll keep you all posted. Bed time now, I am beat.

Sully

Great job Sully! But I knew that you could hit your peak for the first contest, your track record and pics told me that. Now it will be interesting to see how number two and number three will work for you. I think that if you can stay well rested and avoid getting streesed out, that you have an excellent chance of maintaining your condition for the three shows.

When you have more time after they are over I'd like to see you post a summary of the key diet/water/sodium/carb details along with your thoughts.

Good luck on the next two!

VA MadDog

SEAN.. congrats! I saw on OCB you did well.. and looked AWESOME!! I also took your advise and kept the water in.. I, too, felt it worked. I hope all goes well going into next week's OCB Show. I'll be there.. see you in Pittsburgh.. I'm sure you'll take the show.. congrats again.. and keep us all posted on how the rebound week goes. So far.. I'm right back on diet.. and not retaining ..yet! Valarie(New2You)..