Hey everyone,
I just got my diet plan (16 weeks out) and i am just confused since i always thought, carbs should be in your post workout meal (at least this far out)... 2 scoops of muscle provider, is that it?
what do you think ?

thanks from germany

If you are you in the process of losing bodyfat your carbs shoulb be kept to minimum. After your workout you want a pre digested protein that enters your bloodstream fast and is absorbed quickly with in your body (like MP ) . If your insulin gets spiked after your workout no fat burning will occur. Thats why MP is the best after working out because of the type of whey protein hydroslate that it has in it.

thanks david
since i train at night i was just concerend that the whey enters and leaves the body fast, leaving me with not much slow digesting protein for the night... (as this shake would be the last meal before bed)

IF you wanted to you could use the ultimate muscle protein before bed. The milk protein isolate will have a slower digestion rate and the cookies and cream flavor is amazing. My other suggestion would be to add 1 tablespoon of Barlenes flax seed oil to slow the absorbition of the shake after your workout too.

quote:

Originally posted by david s:
If you are you in the process of losing bodyfat your carbs shoulb be kept to minimum. After your workout you want a pre digested protein that enters your bloodstream fast and is absorbed quickly with in your body (like MP ) . If your insulin gets spiked after your workout no fat burning will occur. Thats why MP is the best after working out because of the type of whey protein hydroslate that it has in it.

Insulin is such an anabolic hormone and spiking it post-workout is beneficial, even when cutting. That insulin spike is needed to shuttle nutrients into the cell and inhibit cortisol release. The presence of insulin throughout other periods of the day will inhibit fat burning. But I have never heard of it being problematic post workout. What do other people think about this? I am confused

Nope. Personally I don't like a massive insulin spike PWO. Especially with people who might be carb sensitive, insulin resistant, or just plain having a rough time dropping bodyfat.

If the insulin spike is too much for your system, the carbs that aren't totally metabolized (simple sugars) are stored as "insulin fat".

Insulin will lower blood sugar levels, but if the body requires more insulin (being insulin resistant) to lower blood sugar levels, the very delicate glucose-insulin balance is thrown out of wack, thus there is a greater chance that carbs will be stored as bodyfat instead of loading the muscles with glycogen.

So it becomes a *****hoot...if insulin levels are too high with a huge spike, carbs won't be used as they should, which can cause fat to gradually accumulate on the body.

I prefer a steadier insulin release throughout the coarse of the day. Whey hydrolysate and bcaa's taken PWO will do a wonderful job in spiking all the insulin necessary to put you back on track. That's why Muscle Provider is my choice immediately after training when I'm in my pre-contest phase.

quote:

Originally posted by Aram:
Nope. Personally I don't like a massive insulin spike PWO. Especially with people who might be carb sensitive, insulin resistant, or just plain having a rough time dropping bodyfat.

If the insulin spike is too much for your system, the carbs that aren't totally metabolized (simple sugars) are stored as "insulin fat".

Insulin will lower blood sugar levels, but if the body requires more insulin (being insulin resistant) to lower blood sugar levels, the very delicate glucose-insulin balance is thrown out of wack, thus there is a greater chance that carbs will be stored as bodyfat instead of loading the muscles with glycogen.

So it becomes a *****hoot...if insulin levels are too high with a huge spike, carbs won't be used as they should, which can cause fat to gradually accumulate on the body.

I prefer a steadier insulin release throughout the coarse of the day. Whey hydrolysate and bcaa's taken PWO will do a wonderful job in spiking all the insulin necessary to put you back on track. That's why Muscle Provider is my choice immediately after training when I'm in my pre-contest phase.

Wow thanks for the info. It is good to know these types of things. I am using muscle provider post workout, maybe I can try leaving the dextrose out and see what happens in terms of fat burning. I have been burning fat at a steady rate thus far so I guess i will either notice a slight increase or decrease and I can go from there. Thanks again!!

I agree with Aram...the PWO carbs are not necessary.

The bump in insulin will blunt the growth hormone response to training.

MP will digest fast and it is fair to say there will be slight bump in insulin...slight, not tidal wave.

Since this is before bed and we get a natural gh release when falling asleep...can the insulin also blunt that? Thinking aloud here.


If you are concerned with slowing the digestion of the MP add some heavy cream to the shake. This makes for quite an anabolic cocktail.

Ray

Do we get a natural release of gh when falling asleep or does it occur later than that? I thought gh was secreted in the deep stages of the sleep cycle (REM) which is why it is important to reach that level of sleep. I could be wrong again....

Also, in terms of making the MP slow digesting, this is beneficial pre-bed not post workout right?

Thanks for the info!

I concur with everything said here. A high quality whey hydrosylate will increase insulin a bit, but not enough to store fat (as with a huge spike from high GI carbs). Regarding adding fats to your shake, I don't think it's a great idea as immediate post-workout as it will slow the digestion of the protein, albeit not dramatically. I think a subsequent shake immediately before bed w/heavy cream and a nice serving of EFA gold would do the trick. It's interesting that post workout nutrient uptake is such a paradox. High insulin shuttles nutrients to the muscle incredibly efficiently, however, it also blunts GH response. As noted before, it can also deposit fat and shut down fat burning if too high. It's basically a trade off in my opinion. Where's the bigger bang for the buck? This is one example where I believe studies say one thing while real-world results (i.e. the "Beverly way") say something slightly different.

Just my .02

jst

geesh insulin is tricky huh. I did not know about the fact that it blunts GH. It looks like I need to get into the insulin literature.

quote:

Since this is before bed and we get a natural gh release when falling asleep...can the insulin also blunt that? Thinking aloud here.

Yep. But all isn't bad, like the use of the carb up. Again, that's not an every day thing, like postworkout.

The insulin spike has its good and may be better if the workout is done first thing AM.

Frank

quote:

Originally posted by Frank:

quote:

Since this is before bed and we get a natural gh release when falling asleep...can the insulin also blunt that? Thinking aloud here.

Yep. But all isn't bad, like the use of the carb up. Again, that's not an every day thing, like postworkout.

The insulin spike has its good and may be better if the workout is done first thing AM.

Frank

Would insulin then blunt cortisol first thing in the AM? I am really interested in this stuff, but honestly I am changing my diet to one of those beverly diets so I don't really have to deal with the carb/insulin issues

quote:

Nope. Personally I don't like a massive insulin spike PWO. Especially with people who might be carb sensitive, insulin resistant, or just plain having a rough time dropping bodyfat.

Well Aram - you know that describes me to a T! Question - I eat about 1/4 cup oatmeal with an MP shake post workout. Should I scrap that and add the carbs in somewhere else in the day? What about preworkout - how important are carbs then? (I eat about 1/3 cup oatmeal with some egg whites and ground turkey).

quote:

Originally posted by Biker Chick:

quote:

Nope. Personally I don't like a massive insulin spike PWO. Especially with people who might be carb sensitive, insulin resistant, or just plain having a rough time dropping bodyfat.

Well Aram - you know that describes me to a T! Question - I eat about 1/4 cup oatmeal with an MP shake post workout. Should I scrap that and add the carbs in somewhere else in the day? What about preworkout - how important are carbs then? (I eat about 1/3 cup oatmeal with some egg whites and ground turkey).

BC,
If things are progressing with bodyfat and muscle retention with your current plan, I would continue on with it until a plateau has been established.

Should my memory surve me correctly, you train first thing in the A.M as I do. Is this correct.
(of course, you must also realize, that if it weren't for flashbacks, I wouldn't have any memory. )

At 8 weeks out I switch over to all Beverly supps. But that's just me. Pre workout my humble suggestion would be 1 gram Vit C, 10-15 grams bcaa's, 5-10 grams glutamine. During training I'd sip on a drink that contained 10-15 grams bcaa's,or 16-20 Muscle Mass,with 3-4 ER or 2 gr ALCAR powder, and post workout (for the gals) I'd suggest 1-2 scoops Glutamine Select, 8-10 Muscle Mass bcaa's,or bulk bcaa, 2-4 Energy Reserve, or 1 gram ALCAR. 40 minutes later I'd have a PWO shake consisting of 2 scoops MP. Followed an hour later with the first meal of the day.

What is your present weight and bodyfar levels??

Aram,

That is super saturation of BCAA's. Just curious if there are any health risks with that kind of consumption day in day out.

Do you only do this during the final 8 weeks. Or are you doing this throughout the year as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Jtheo:
Aram,

That is super saturation of BCAA's. Just curious if there are any health risks with that kind of consumption day in day out.

Do you only do this during the final 8 weeks. Or are you doing this throughout the year as well?

J,
Not year round bro. Only on workout days, during pre-contest.

Additionally, I don't observe 35-45gr of bcaa's centered around a hard training session, as "super saturation".

The only side effect I've noticed over the years with this type protocol (going back 15 years when bcaa's weren't en vogue ) is increased fat loss and lean muscle gains/retention on a hypo-caloric diet.

There have been some studies which have shown a tendency for depression with ultra high amounts. However, I know no one who has had any such episodes, including myself, when mega-dosing bcaa's.

I have also heard similar comments regarding Lean Out. In the past, I have gone upwards of 5 LO prior to each meal for several weeks, without any adverse affects.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank:

quote:

Since this is before bed and we get a natural gh release when falling asleep...can the insulin also blunt that? Thinking aloud here.

Yep. But all isn't bad, like the use of the carb up. Again, that's not an every day thing, like postworkout.

The insulin spike has its good and may be better if the workout is done first thing AM.

Frank

When the Beverly diets advocate a carb up twice a week on Tuesays and Thursdays, are these days arbitrarily selected? For instance, it is my understanding that you should carb up on the days you train your worst bodyparts. Would I choose my two carb up days based upon this or should I stick with Tuesday and Thursday? I did not know if people strategically plan their carb up days or if they just do it twice a week. Any info is greatly appreciated....

quote:

When the Beverly diets advocate a carb up twice a week on Tuesays and Thursdays, are these days arbitrarily selected? For instance, it is my understanding that you should carb up on the days you train your worst bodyparts. Would I choose my two carb up days based upon this or should I stick with Tuesday and Thursday? I did not know if people strategically plan their carb up days or if they just do it twice a week. Any info is greatly appreciated....

This is an interesting question and I look forward to hearing what Aram, Ray and Craig think about the issue. Here is my two cents worth. There are only so many timing factors that you can reasonably control and work into a total diet and training program. For example you can plan for a once or twice a week carb up, working it into your diet plan such as a carb rotation plan like HI,LO,NO,NO,HI,LO,NO - easy enough to do. That may or may not work out to be a certain day of the week as it will occur however the rotation falls. Now it gets more complicated - if your training plan is a different rotation, with set rest days the two may not rotate in the same way. Therefore, one week your HI carb days may coincide with your leg workout day, and the next week it might not. From my perspective if your carb rotation plan is working for you, and if your training plan is also working for you I say don't worry about how the two mesh up with each other. For example, you might have to change one or the other rotation in order to always have a HI carb day fall onto your leg day. I think that it is more important to follow the key aspects of each plan - the rotation schedule for carbs and the rest/recovery time for training as these are the most important factors that make those plans work. If you tinker with the timing of either in order to have certain diet days fall on certain training days it would be almost impossible to manage.

In general it is recomended that a higher carb day coincide with your heavier workout days (legs, back) but again I would not worry about this synergy if you are happy with your carb rotation and training schedules. The important thing about the carb rotation is the impact that it has on your metabolism and your bodies ability and desire to burn body fat for energy. The important thing about rest and recovery time in your training program is to allow for growth of LBM, but also to stave off getting into a catabolic state with too much activity/muscle stress and not enough rest and recovery time.

While it is ideal to have your HI carb days coincide with your heavy workout days, if someting has to give I say the other two rotations are more important and will get you better results than if you were to mess them up just so that your HI carb days would always fall on leg or back days.

Perhaps some of this is just personal preference. I can only track and schedule so many things before driving myself crazy and thus adding unnecessary stress to my life - if I can deal with both the carb and training rotations, and get in all 6 meals and manage my supplement plan that is enough for me. I'm just not going to worry about how the different HI/LO days fall.

I'll add more fuel to the fire. It is recomended that your PWO drink wait about 45 minutes after a heavy workout day - this is to allow your body to take advantage of the bump in natural GH release that occurs after a heavy workout before changing your insulin levels via intake of a PWO meal. Good idea if you can work it in. Then an hour after your PWO drink have your whole food meal to include some carbs which you left out of your PWO meal (pre-contest). Again great - but if your schedule does not easily allow for this it would be more important to just take the POW drink whenever you could after your workout and not worry about the 45 minute and one hour time windows. Just the fact that you are taking in the right macronutrients in those meals, and the fact that you have a 5/6 or 7 meal a day plan is much more important than the impact of a 45 minute or one hour timing issue. So if you can work it all out as an ideal plan great, if not do the best that you can and don't sweat it. You are still going to get 95%+ of the positive benefits of the plan even if it is not perfectly timed. In the end it is consistency over the long haul that allows for progress and positive results. 30 or 60 minutes here or there has a negligible effect on the overall picture in the long run. If by being a little flexible it means that you can be more consistent over time with your overall plan then you will succeed and reap the positive benefits. Eating clean, eating 5/6/7 meals a day and having a good training plan are the core aspects of a program that will work. The other more detailed timing issues are the icing on the cake, great if you can work it in but don't sweat it if you can't always follow the ideal.

Thanks Aram for the answer.

Im itching to get back into the iron game. Was just told by the doc now Im gonna be waiting until mid may.

At least I can walk and play soccer. Im staying lean, with a good diet, but **** i miss training.

QUESTION: I have some bulk BCAA powder. If I were to sip this on my way to the soccer game would this also work the same to help incrase fat loss through the same mechanism as when we train with weights, ie, body thinks muscle is being used up.

Anything I can do to stay as lean as possible with the warm weather approaching.