It is now a week after my contest and I have been on a diet that has consisted of 385P 240C and 65F(25g from fish oils)...I have gained 4lbs in 7 days probably 1 or 2 lbs from fat and the rest water...I was thinking about staying with these numbers until my weight gain stops and then upping the carbs alittle bit at breakfast, pre workout and post then lowering the fish oil fats as the carbs go up...Let me know what you guys think.

23 years old 6’5 224lbs endomorph

Endo's respond better with a lower protein diet. I'd switch your protein and carb macro's around.

Start increasing your protein once you begin dieting down.

For a 23 year old endo at 225 workout 7 days a week 2 days cardio and abs then 5 with weights...What do you think my protein and carbs should be at if I want to gain lean mass in the off season?

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protein and carbs should be at if I want to gain lean mass in the off season?

Just reverse the numbers. 240P 385C 65F. See how this works for you.

Yea that sounds good il lgive that a try wont jump right up to 385 with the carbs ill work my way up and as the carbs go up i will lower the protein...Thanks for the help

Man I sure hate to confuse this poster, but Aram, did you think he said Ectomorph.

In my experience helping endo competitors, they are almost always the ones I have to stray from my usual carb numbers at some point to bring them in. Its been my experience that as prep goes along they do better on higher protein, fats and lowering carbs.

Now I dont take them to ridiculous low levels, but I have to take them lower than my other people I work with.

So for me I think I liked the way he had it before, thats without doing any number calculations.

Im preping an endo now and he has had to go down to 270P/190C/50F at a lean body mass of 182 to keep fat loss moving.

Everything Ive ever read has stated endos do better on more protein/fats and less carbs than the typical ecto or meso.

I dont take them zero like some crazy diets, but Ive had to take them much lower than the ectos.

This is just my experience.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jtheo:
Man I sure hate to confuse this poster, but Aram, did you think he said Ectomorph.

, QUOTE]

Nope.... I know exactly what he said.

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Originally posted by Aram:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jtheo:
Man I sure hate to confuse this poster, but Aram, did you think he said Ectomorph.

, QUOTE]

Nope.... I know exactly what he said.

Interesting....so its been your experience endos do well on lower protein and higher carbs?

I hope you know I didnt say you were wrong becuase you have a lot of experience, I just havent found this in my own experiences with them.

So you really think they do better on lower protien and the carbs being higher than the protein? Is there something else Im not considering here?

Or am I missing something?

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Or am I missing something?

Jason, I don't think you're missing anything at all. You're probably providing a different protocol and it is not the diet alone. You see your experiences and Aram sees his. Both of you know how to manipulate. Menna may be right in that he cannot jump into that macro change. Trade notes with Aram and see where it differs. Perhaps it is total calories and not so much the ratio.

I must apologize. I didn't mean to state that endo's must have a higher ratio of carbs to protein. Although, I don't think I actually made that statement. And I apologize to menna if it was misinterpreted in this fashion when I suggested for him to switch the macro's around.

Right now I am rushing to get to my AA meeting, so I will go into more detail tomorrow. However, I believe that generally, excess protein, rather than excess carbs, has more of the potential for gains in adipose tissue. And this is especially the case with endo's. Although I really am unsure whether Menna is an endo.

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And I apologize to menna if it was misinterpreted in this fashion when I suggested for him to switch the macro's around.

That would be me. I thought you meant to reverse the numbers as I suggested to Menna. Glad you've recheck. Menna would be real big in 3 weeks.

I'm no longer carb-a-phobic. My workouts have been able to handle the higher intensity without burnout and feeling weak.

It is now two weeks after my contest and I have jumped from 220lbs-225/226lbs..For the first week and a half I was on a diet that was 390P 240C and 65F...I went from 220 to 226 in 11 days...I was starting to feel sluggish and I could feel the fat building on my ass and thighs.

I adjusted my diet and now it looks like 346P 240C and 57F...I have been on this diet for three days now and my weight has dropped from 226 to 225 and I feel alot better...I believe that this is where my protein and fats should be...As the weeks go on I will increase my carbs at breakfast, pre and post workout and see how that works...Let me know if you guys think this is a good plan...Thanks

(My goal is to be on a very very clean bulk minimal fat gain mostly muscle.)

quote:

Originally posted by Aram:
However, I believe that generally, excess protein, rather than excess carbs, has more of the potential for gains in adipose tissue.

Just to clarify...this is strictly my opinion based on my experience with clients, family, and myself, spanning 25 years:

I believe the carb-to-fat conversion within the sytem requires a longer process to achieve, than the protein-to-fat conversion, since excess protein cannot be stored. The liver and muscle tissue can store a lot of carbs. However, with protein, once you exceed your requirement (saturation point) you begin to store it as fat.
I also believe that bodybuilders who get fat and sloppy in the offseason, are basically abusing protein, and to a lesser dgree, fat amounts.... NOT carbs.

IMHO

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also believe that bodybuilders who get fat and sloppy in the offseason, are basically abusing protein, and to a lesser dgree, fat amounts.... NOT carbs.

LOL, McDonald's and Pizza Hut. That's why I see and it is overdone, too. The average gain after a contest that I have seen is 50-75 lbs on competitors in the 155-170 contest weight. Some of these are serious competitors, most were average competitors. Post contest bingeing. This makes it very difficult for me to make comparisons to what this topic is covering.

Let's go back to the old 4 jars of PB per week. While that is overdoing it, perhaps even dangerous in the long term effects, I did not gain any fat at all. I did this for about 4 months and once I stopped or tapered off, fat began to add on and it really made a turn for the worse when the Holidays came around.

I went from August at 170 post contest gain of only 5 lbs in about 4 months to 185 after the Holidays and there I've bounced +/- 5 lbs since (2004).

Aren’t your fats supposed to be 15-25% of your total cal intake when dieting and in the off-season fats don’t have to be monitored as closely because you are taking in enough protein and carbs to the point where your testosterone levels are high enough where you don’t need to worry about fats as much as you do when you are dieting...Is this true?

I do believe that high protein intake will lead to fat gain because ever since I lowered mine by 50g’s I feel much better

Menna I agree I have always thought that people overeat protein which leads to fat gains, especially when you add in all the cheats that most consume in the off season. If your taking in alot of carbs you getting protein from those as well, so no need to over due it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aram:

quote:

Originally posted by Aram:
However, I believe that generally, excess protein, rather than excess carbs, has more of the potential for gains in adipose tissue.

Just to clarify...this is strictly my opinion based on my experience with clients, family, and myself, spanning 25 years:

I believe the carb-to-fat conversion within the sytem requires a longer process to achieve, than the protein-to-fat conversion, since excess protein cannot be stored. The liver and muscle tissue can store a lot of carbs. However, with protein, once you exceed your requirement (saturation point) you begin to store it as fat.
I also believe that bodybuilders who get fat and sloppy in the offseason, are basically abusing protein, and to a lesser dgree, fat amounts.... NOT carbs.

IMHO

AMEN BROTHA! I agree 100% with EVERYTHING you stated. People dont realize that protein has NO STORAGE capability over eat it and it will store as fat more than likely, the body can store carbs in the liver, the blood the muscle, etc.

Good post Aram thats the basis of my diets...

The chemistry behind protein conversion is a little different. It is incorrect to say that excess protein is "stored as fat". Actually the conversion of protein to fat TAKES energy and ATP USAGE and there is no direct pathway from protien molecule to fat molecule. This is why protein is considered to be "thermogenic", because excess takes ATP usage and increases metabolism to tear apart amino groups and convert into glucose.

What happens is that excess protein (Past saturation) is actually easily converted into glucose, which is converted into glycogen if needed, OR glucose to FAT. Glucose to Fat is the easiest of conversion in the metabolic system. So protien does not actually "store as fat". This is why the 50/20/30 diet works so well in short term. The body is "starving" for carbohydrates and uses excess protein to convert it into ATP via gluconeogenisis (either from fats or from excess protein). That is why it is a thermogenic type diet... for a short time anyways....

Just wanted to defeat the generality that excess protein "stores as fat"..... and yes, i am a huge nerd.

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and yes, i am a huge nerd

Gotta love it!

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protien does not actually "store as fat".

The bottomline, at some point, excess calories are stored at fat. Is that statement T or F?

A few years back, one of the theories was some excess is excreted as waste in both urine and stools.