So here is the deal. I am NOT sold on BCAA for usage before OR during a workout. Research says that BCAA are insulinogenic. So how come so many people are using BCAA's during their workout when fat burning is their primary goal??? Insulin production is the LAST thing you want during or before lifting if you want to dip into fat storage. Nothing puts a halt to lypolysis or the anearobic cycle like a serum increase in INSULIN.

I guess it depends on what your goals are and what your diet is like, but given the understanding (or confusion) of how BCAA's are metabolized, it has never made much sense to me for people to want to use these aminos during their workout. This is why I ALWAYS adise to use DENSITY over MUSCLE MASS during a workout. Density is ESSENTIAL AMINOS and are metabolized, just like the BCAA'S, in the muscle cell and not the liver. The BIG difference, is that Essential Aminos together do not need Insulin to carry them into the cell, where as the BCAA's DO need insulin to carry them, thus being INSULINOGENIC (whew, that was a mouthful, are your heads spinning yet??).... Anyways, am I wrong in thinking this way?? What am I missing regarding WHY one would use BCAA's for their fat burning progress?

True, they are anti-catabolic when taken POST-Workout or throughout the day, but once again that has to do with INSULIN production (cortisol HATES insulin)

Anyways, any insight that I am not picking up on would be helpfull. I guess my question is, how on earth could BCAA's usage during a workout increase fat utilization??? Or can it?

This is a very good point Chunky. I have never been sold on the whole BCAA's thing. You can get plenty just from Muscle Provider. I use Density during training and see nothing but great results. There is a great discussion about this over at musculardevelopment.com Alot of mixed opinions on this subject.

dont know guys i took up to 24 grams during every training session and got pretty ripped. i love the way they make me feel i have more endurance than most people ive ever trained with. i dont take them during LISS but during training you train harder you will challenge more fibers and burn more calories.

Experience tells me that on a restricted calorie diet that BCAA's help with performance and fat loss when taken during training. I understand the argument for why you would not take BCAA's and all of those arguments are valid as logic and science would tell you one thing but I have seen countless bodybuilders use high levels of BCAA's during training and get get stupid shredded (case in point Joe)!

I also believe that Energy Reserve (L-carnitine) is very under-rated!

I don't know, personally I have not seen it hurt to take during training in fact I have only seen it help. I remember back in 2000 when I was taking 40+ Muscle Mass during training I was on a very low carb diet. At the start of my training session I would usually pop about 20 and then about 5 every 10 minutes. At the start of my workout I would drag and within 20 minutes I was in cruise control, training like a madman. I truly believe the insulin needed to transport the BCAA's actually helped me during my training and made it more effective.

Perhaps it was everything all together or maybe it was just the Muscle Mass but I have tried everything during training, Glutamine Select, other products, Density and so forth and I never had the increase in definition or performance to when I took a high concentration of Muscle Mass during training.

Like I said I would lose a debate on the scientific side of this discussion but experience tells me and what I recommend to all my clients is on restricted calories is BCAA's during training, Density during meals and the last few weeks a large dose of Energy Reserve before HIIT and training and GH Factor twice per day. That protocol has never steered anyone wrong!

On higher carb plans I tend to recommend a higher concentration of glutamine, more density with meals and Slin-Trol.

I think it would be quite interesting to take two people on the exact same plans and have one take Muscle Mass during training and the other take Density during training and see the differences.

I have complete faith in what Roger says and I know there is a reason for continuing to keep Muscle Mass and recommend it during training. In saying that I remember last year when Density came back that Roger was wanting to move to Utah and make Density his second wife. (just kidding) The point is Density is a fantastic product and would work at anytime throughout the day. I also think that Muscle Mass is fine during training, no science behind that statement, just experience!

I truly believe in basic principles and mastering the basics. I believe in taking a few supplements to their full capacity instead of a laundry list.

I think this is the list I am going to take for Nationals:
Super Pak
UMP
Mass Maker
Glutamine
Density (with meals and during training because I want to test it during training)
Mass Aminos
Ultra 40
GH Factor
Energy Reserve
Slin-Trol

Well I guess that is alot but I have done more in the past. I believe during gaining phases I am going to take 50 Mass during training and on cutting phases will take 40 Density during training. Then Ultra 40, Density with meals as well as Slin-Trol on higher carb meals. UMP, Mass Maker as replacements and GH Factor and Energy Reserve as the show gets closer. Simple, effective, to the point and a lot of the essentials, that has always worked for me!

Heck, now that I think about it, I may think about taking up to 75 Density per day when I get into hard core training. Can you imagine about 3 during meals, 3 between meals and 40 during training - 75 for the day. My wife will kill me but I think I might try it. A constant and high feeding during the day and training, I think the experiment would be quite interesting.

hmmmmmm......when i'm lifting, burning fat is the last thing on my mind. i feel like that is for the other 23 hours in the day. also i thought an insulin spike was necessary to shuttle nutrients into the muscles ? isn't that why you want a carb source post workout ?either way it's an interesting point.

I could for sure see how they would help on a ketogenic or super low carb diet during training. That would make more sense than for someone who eats quite a bit of carbs on their diet.... but heck, if Joe used them during his workouts, then I am SOLD LOL!!! Shreddy Shreddy Joe.

chunky i took near 8-12 grams depending on energy levels and body parts legs sometimes took much more. also took carnitine with them. but made sure to get down before halfway point of workout so liss could work wonders

For sure on the LISS cardio !! Yeah, I can see how that would work. I am also a FIRM believer in Energy Reserve along with BCAA's. Carnitine is a major transporter of these amino's so it would be crazy NOT to include it.

I have recently been doing 10 tabs of Muscle Mass along with 1 tab Energy Reserve post-workout, then I eat my post-workout meal about 20 mins after that.... but during training, I just can't help myself = DENSITY is the key!!

quote:

DENSITY is the key!!

Im with Chunky on this one!! Joe is a genetic freak obviously, it don't matter what he takes

come on now... i put more effort into these last two shows than ever before. genetically gifted freak? i dont know about that.

The three BCAAs make up the majority of the amino acids that muscle tissue. By the old cliché “building blocks” of muscle, these are the most prominent ones. I first used this method preparing for a show in ’99 when Dr Seranno was first advocating this method. His recommendations are to consume .25 - .35 grams per Kilogram of Bodyweight in BCAAs during training. For simplicity, if you go with about a gram per pound of lean mass, I think you’ll see outstanding results. It works with high carbs and without.

The gist of it is this: When muscle is broken down, it’s primarily coming from the BCAAs (remember this is the majority of muscle). Dosing with lots of free form BCAAs running through your system triggers the body to thinking it’s breaking down significant muscle. This triggers a protective state where your body will seek stored fat to replenish glycogen by way of gluconeogenesis. Ah yes, the competitors paradise of utilizing stored fat for energy instead of muscle.

Plus, If you don’t supplement with BCAAs, Glutamine Select, Density etc, these amino acids (mainly BCAAs) WILL BE HARVESTED FROM YOUR MUSCLE…aka muscle breakdown. The BCAAs also provide lots of fuel and contractile strength to muscle. You can dictate that it comes from your supps instead of your muscle.

Less muscle breakdown, more effective fueling of muscle and accelerated fat loss. What more could we want?

I know that when I did this, I got a lot stronger even at 6 weeks out from a show and I experienced zero muscle loss while getting leaner. Comparing numbers to the last show I had done utilizing the exact same diet I retained 66% more lean tissue. Countless studies also back up the claim that BCAAs even specifically help reduce belly fat.

Steven Wade
Beverly International

would this also work during more intense cardio sessions where there is more chance of muscle loss??

quote:

Originally posted by LidLicker:
would this also work during more intense cardio sessions where there is more chance of muscle loss??

yes, if you are doing a HIIT style I highly recommend some BCAAs.

i second and third the stronger aspect of training as mentioned by steven